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Author Topic: The State of NetTalk Documentation  (Read 4588 times)

JHojka

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The State of NetTalk Documentation
« on: January 11, 2012, 11:05:23 AM »
I have been struggling with nettalk web server for some time now. I have used several CapeSoft products in the past and have always felt that the documentation was a strong point. I honestly have to say that the documentation for the Web Server part of NetTalk is not only poor but on the verge of being useless. If I was not already committed to the project I am working on I would honestly return this product. I find myself spending hours just to try and do simple things. I understand that the NetTalk server combines many different concepts and I do not expect the documentation to teach me these concepts. I do expect that the documentation will explain all of the internal methods and settings. I would also expect that there would be examples in the documentation on how to implement each field on each template with screen shots. I would like to see more time spent working on documentation before any future enhancements are made. Just my opinion on what may be a great product if it was not this hard to get started.

Jeff Hojka
Marathon software Co.

DonRidley

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Re: The State of NetTalk Documentation
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 11:30:42 AM »
Wow!  Return NetTalk?  Arguably the most powerful and comprehensive 3rd party product on the market today? 

I will admit the NetTalk 6 docs are a work in progress but you can go back and read the NetTalk 5 docs as most of their content still applies to NT6.

NetTalk WebServer does have a steep learning curve.  It's steep because of the many many things it can do.  I have been using NetTalk since NT4 and I still feel clueless a great deal of the time.  You have to stick with it and keep banging away at the keyboard.  It does get better.

I gave a demo of one my products to a customer today that relies heavily on NetTalk 6.  The customer was blown away when I said (speaking of the web interface):

Runs on Windows
Runs on Linux
Runs on Macintosh
Runs on iPods
Runs on iPads
Runs on iPhones
Runs on Android
and on and on....

Anyway, just my thoughts...

Don
"Eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth."

NetTalk 12.55
Clarion 11

bruce2

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Re: The State of NetTalk Documentation
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 12:28:34 PM »
Hi Jeff,

While I appreciate Don's vote of confidence, I'm as aware as anyone that the docs could be improved. At the end of the day I have a finite amount of time, and finding the balance between fixing bugs, implementing new features, and doing documentation is difficult. It's somewhat natural that the emphasis tends to oscillate between features and docs on a regular basis.

Even when the docs are a priority, working on the "right kind" of docs is also an art. Documentation can be of a tutorial nature (like the 2010 book) or a more referential nature like the existing shipping docs. And even there should the focus be on documenting the template, the classes or the underlying concepts?

To be honest, we probably disagree on the priorities, at least as far as documenting the classes themselves go. That's not to say that tha is unimportant, just that it renders little value without a contex to plug it into. Plus it is the simplest to absorb without docs - in the sense that all the methods are listed in net web.inc and all the code can be read in netweb.clw. But reading the methods out of context helps you very little (which is why just studying the code is less helpful.)

Over the past 5 years or so we've tried to make training available to shorten the learning curve, and that is an ongoing effort. Training, and training materials are usually outside the scope of the actual product, so we have to try and keep these efforts economically viable, which means more cost to end users. That's something I try and avoid, but we all live I the real world.

Current documentation efforts are being concentrated in two areas. The first is to update the book to make sure that it remains correct, and is expanded to cover event more information at a conceptual and tutorial type level. This will remain the primary tool for "learning" - especially for beginners.

The second focus is on updating the template refereence. This is the most important key to covering what the tool is designed to do easily for you. A new template reference has already been started, but it is a fairly large task and will take some weeks to complete.

Existing ancillary documentation also needs to be checked for accuracy, and that has been happening since NT6 shipped, and is an ongoing effort.

Of course it really doesn't matter how much documentation there is - if you're trying to do something for the first time it can be a challenge, regardless of how simple it is. If there isn't a bit somewhere saying "this is how you do x" then the docs aren't helping. This is made worse by the fact that most NT users are already very proficient in Clarion, and are not used to simple tasks taking a long time.

NetTalkCentral has a key role to play in this regard, because chances are other programmers have walked the road before you, and may either be able to help directly, or give you clues to getting going.

Frankly I'd love to take a month off from bug-fixing and just write docs, but I'm acutely aware that I could do that and still not benefit the community at large. That approach doesn't really help folk, like yourself, who have programs to write, and deadlines to make.

In closing, yes, it's a balance, but the docs are not forgotten. They are an important piece of the puzzle, and they do get time and effort spent on them. Alas though I cannot describe every possible task, or document every possible bit of embed code. So I do recommend asking on the forums when you do have issues. Some questions are harder to answer then others, and some highlight areas that need to be improved, but continued dialog is necessary for all concerned.

Cheers
Bruce

JHojka

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Re: The State of NetTalk Documentation
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 01:54:06 PM »
My frustration is that I tried to do 4 things today.

1. Add a Print This Page Button using JavaScript.
2. Add a What is This information button with a pop-up
3. Prevent the user from exiting a web page similar to how other web pages prevent the user from exiting the page.
4. Change the Text and Icons for several buttons.

In an 8 hour day I have been able to get item 1 to work. I was not able to solve any of the other problems using the documentation. I have resisted buying "THE BOOK" as I feel the proper documentation should be part of the initial product. I also was not aware that a book would be needed to learn this product and therefore I did not explain that to my boss when we made the nettalk purchase. My boss is very tight with the money and I must now try and justify why we need to spend almost $200 dollars for a book when we just paid money for the product. He will want to now why I did not know that the book you need to learn nettalk was not included. I will have to take the blame for this. Chances are I will have to purchase this book out of my own pocket. I would recommend that the very first line in the documentation at capesoft.com is a warning or recommendation that you buy an additional book. The only way I knew about the book was from a forum post.

Jeff Hojka
Marathon software Co.

bruce2

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Re: The State of NetTalk Documentation
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 09:01:40 PM »
Hi Jeff,

First off, you don't have to buy the book. It's not a requirement, just a resource. It makes the learning curve shorter, which means things happen quicker, but as I say it's not a requirement.
There are an awful lot of computer books available, on many different programs and languages. If you don't believe in books for learning, that's fine.

On the up side they probably won't make a huge difference to the task list you set yourself below. A couple of the involve JavaScript, and I don't pretend to document JavaScript at all. There'd are hooks in the system for adding your own JavaScript (and the book does cover adding JavaScript in general) but obviously that's a whole other language to learn.

Your best avenue (which you have taken) is to post questions here when you hit a problem. That's a good strategy for these sorts of specific things.


JHojka

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Re: The State of NetTalk Documentation
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 07:12:12 AM »
I understand the overwhelming task of documenting as I have done a lot of it myself. I would never expect you to document Javascript, css, jquery, html etc.. Where I usually get stuck is in some small detail in how this gets translated in the template settings.   

I also must apologize for venting as much as I did about the documentation and the book. I have to give a demo tomorrow and I quit smoking a week ago. Not a good combo at the moment. I see that you are active in the forums and I will have to take advantage of this more than I have.

Jeff Hojka

Marathon Software Co.